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Should we baptize adults only or should we also baptize infants of Christians?

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  • Originally posted by Marte View Post

    Speaking of Orthodox twists, do they really think an omnipotent deity is faked out by an eruv for even a second?
    Most people seem convinced that they can either fool their god(s) outright, or play lawyerly tricks to stay out of trouble, despite also maintaining their claims of godly omniscience.

    They also think their god(s) are making errors of judgment that can be corrected by petition, through prayer.

    Makes no sense to me. One would think that an omni-whatzit deity could manage okay on its own, even if it didn't always know what its creations were thinking.

    Loren

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    • Loren Exactly. Great minds think alike.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Metpatpetet View Post

        Why not? It regards itself as one. It does call itself a "Church" LINK

        Messianic Judaism is full of people who call themselves Jews and considers their religion a branch of Judaism.

        Wikipedia tells us
        Many adherents of Messianic Judaism are ethnically Jewish[25] and argue that the movement is a sect of Judaism.[26]
        Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Judaism







        Comment


        • Originally posted by Keith Edgerly View Post

          No. I mean that the Great Assembly probably did not set the Jewish canon since the Dead Sea Scrolls do not agree with what is now regarded as the Jewish canon. The use of Tobit and the absence of Esther probably means that the Essene Sect was either not conforming to the decision of the Great Assembly or the Great Assembly did not set the Jewish Canon.

          Keith
          And I say that the Essenes who set themselves apart from the mainstream out in the desert did not necessarily agree with normative Judaism, so what?

          You haven't answered my question though, what's any of it to you, how and why Jews accepted certain books into their canon and excluded others. Does it impact your faith or religion in any way? I can't see how.


          Shoshana

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Marte View Post

            Speaking of Orthodox twists, do they really think an omnipotent deity is faked out by an eruv for even a second?
            No one is trying to fake out God. Thinking that shows you do not understand halacha.
            Shoshana

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Metpatpetet View Post

              Why not? It regards itself as one. It does call itself a "Church" LINK
              I read the book, and the first few paragraphs of your link describe the initial attempts at gaining "churchhood". Sorry. I'm not impressed with "real" churches and much less so with this one.

              MK

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              • Originally posted by Shoshana View Post
                halacha
                Oh, on the contrary. I understand that there are many instances where people, interpreting scripture, have painted themselves (or, more likely, other people, especially women) into a corner with their interpretations. And when the interpretations cause real trouble for people, rather than just saying "We did that wrong, we complicated things too much, we need to undo what we did," they try to find a workaround so they can delude themselves into believing they're still complying with the rules while they actually aren't. As with the eruv. No amount of fishing line or PVC pipe (or whatever) changes the fact that people are carrying things outside of their homes. HaShem is not fooled.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Marte View Post

                  Oh, on the contrary. I understand that there are many instances where people, interpreting scripture, have painted themselves (or, more likely, other people, especially women) into a corner with their interpretations. And when the interpretations cause real trouble for people, rather than just saying "We did that wrong, we complicated things too much, we need to undo what we did," they try to find a workaround so they can delude themselves into believing they're still complying with the rules while they actually aren't. As with the eruv. No amount of fishing line or PVC pipe (or whatever) changes the fact that people are carrying things outside of their homes. HaShem is not fooled.
                  Sorry, I am not convinced by your comments that you want to understand, never mind do understand, what is going on with an eruv. Fooling God is not part of it.
                  Shoshana

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Marte View Post

                    Speaking of Orthodox twists, do they really think an omnipotent deity is faked out by an eruv for even a second?
                    An eruv is a legal fiction, designed to allow a form of "work" [in this case, traveling more than a few paces from one's home on the Sabbath] by turning a public space into a private one [you can walk around your home as much as you like]. All legal systems employ the occasional legal fiction or some laws would be unworkable. Is God not aware of this? I don't pretend to understand the mind of God, but it's all part of a highly elaborate plan to regulate human life that Jews feel is a way not only of living more ethically and better, but shows God we honor Him. OF COURSE a non-religious person can't see the point of it.

                    All Catholic monastic communities have a Holy Rule which literally affects every minute of a religious member's existence. It's designed to let a group of people live together in maximum devotion and minimum friction. Some of the minutaie seem extremely frivolous, if one reads the Rule in its entirety, but it contributes toward a common goal. Halacha is like this. It may seem like an absurd question to wonder whether one can play Scrabble on the Sabbath, but there is a larger principle at the root of this.
                    Metpatpetet מתפתפתת
                    אשרי אדם, מצא חכמה ואדם יפיק תבונה
                    Proverbs 3:13

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Mel View Post


                      Messianic Judaism is full of people who call themselves Jews and considers their religion a branch of Judaism.

                      Wikipedia tells us
                      Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Judaism
                      Many Messianic "Jews" are also not Jewish at all. IMO, it's a cult. But I never said that the Jews for Jesus weren't a religious organization. They're just not part of Judaism. They may think they're Jewish, but Jews don't think they're Jewish.
                      Metpatpetet מתפתפתת
                      אשרי אדם, מצא חכמה ואדם יפיק תבונה
                      Proverbs 3:13

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Metpatpetet View Post

                        Many Messianic "Jews" are also not Jewish at all. IMO, it's a cult. But I never said that the Jews for Jesus weren't a religious organization. They're just not part of Judaism. They may think they're Jewish, but Jews don't think they're Jewish.
                        The argument some are making is that Scientology are not a religion. Scientologists may think they are a religion but they're not. Or so the argument goes. I don't have any problem wrapping my mind around this argument nor do I have any difficulty understanding your argument. I also understand the argument that Mormons aren't Christians even if they think they are because other Christians don't think they're Christians.

                        Is Rachel Dolezal black? Is Scientology a religion? Darned if I know.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Mel View Post

                          The argument some are making is that Scientology are not a religion. Scientologists may think they are a religion but they're not. Or so the argument goes. I don't have any problem wrapping my mind around this argument nor do I have any difficulty understanding your argument. I also understand the argument that Mormons aren't Christians even if they think they are because other Christians don't think they're Christians.

                          Is Rachel Dolezal black? Is Scientology a religion? Darned if I know.
                          There are always gray areas, everywhere, and in everything.
                          Metpatpetet מתפתפתת
                          אשרי אדם, מצא חכמה ואדם יפיק תבונה
                          Proverbs 3:13

                          Comment


                          • [QUOTE=Keith Edgerly;n19567]

                            PS We're going far afield from the discussion of infant baptism.[/QUOTE]

                            I don't know if the software allows us to prune threads and creat sub-threads. I am thinking the answer is no. But like I wrote, I don't know.

                            Let's ask mikeofallbirds

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Mel View Post

                              The argument some are making is that Scientology are not a religion. Scientologists may think they are a religion but they're not. Or so the argument goes. I don't have any problem wrapping my mind around this argument nor do I have any difficulty understanding your argument. I also understand the argument that Mormons aren't Christians even if they think they are because other Christians don't think they're Christians.

                              Is Rachel Dolezal black? Is Scientology a religion? Darned if I know.
                              Chama: As I understand it (and would the Jewish folks correct me if I am wrong, please), a Jewish person is pretty much always considered Jewish by other Jews. He or she may become a "secular Jew" or an unbeliever or convert to some other religious belief. But he or she is still considered a Jew by other Jews.

                              Christians don't define things as clearly. Some say Mormons aren't Christian. Some say Catholics aren't and I've even heard it said that Baptists aren't really Christian. We spend too much time fighting over BS like this rather than focusing on our own behavior and whether or not we are following what Christ really taught and not what so many preachers tell us.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Chama View Post

                                Chama: As I understand it (and would the Jewish folks correct me if I am wrong, please), a Jewish person is pretty much always considered Jewish by other Jews. He or she may become a "secular Jew" or an unbeliever or convert to some other religious belief. But he or she is still considered a Jew by other Jews.

                                Christians don't define things as clearly. Some say Mormons aren't Christian. Some say Catholics aren't and I've even heard it said that Baptists aren't really Christian. We spend too much time fighting over BS like this rather than focusing on our own behavior and whether or not we are following what Christ really taught and not what so many preachers tell us.
                                There's that overlap again, which is so complicated, and often bewildering to others -- and sometimes to Jews themselves. Let's take Scott. He was born, as I understand it, to a Jewish mother (please correct me if I'm wrong, Scott). In Jewish Law that makes him a Jew, whether or not he assumed Jewish religious observance in any way when he was 13 years old (there does not have to be any ceremony).

                                At some point, Scott CHOSE to convert to Mormonism. Here's where the controversy begins. There are those who claim that Scott is no longer a member of the Jewish people because his decision to convert was a definite, conscious decision of his (the famous "Brother Daniel"* case in Israel was based on a similar situation). No one forced Scott.

                                Others say he remains a Jew, albeit a very bad one, and is disbarred from performing any Jewish religious functions. This might be called the "nationalist defense". In either case, Jews believe that Scott will have a lot of explaining to do when he stands before God, which eventually he will have to do. God will decide, and we cannot know the "verdict", nor can we prejudge him -- it's none of our business. In any event, unless his wife is Jewish, his posterity is lost to the Jewish people, and Judaism. It's as if his line is extinct, which is why families used to mourn converts and those who married out as dead (hardly happens any more).


                                *Brother Daniel was a Catholic priest who claimed instant Israeli citizenship iunder the Law of Return in the 1950s because he'd been born to Jewish parents. The (civil) court ruled that because he'd chosen to renounce his Jewishness, he was not eligible and he'd have to apply for naturalization like any other non-Jew wishing to become an Israeli citizen.

                                Metpatpetet מתפתפתת
                                אשרי אדם, מצא חכמה ואדם יפיק תבונה
                                Proverbs 3:13

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by mikeofallbirds View Post

                                  The absence of Esther may just be because the Dead Sea Scrolls we have are not complete. We only have fragments of a great many books. It is possible that it is just chance that we don't have any from Esther.
                                  It's possible but there are texts of every other book of the Hebrew Bible including Hebrew and Aramaic texts of Tobit and it is commonly agreed that Esther was one of the later additions to the Hebrew Bible.

                                  Keith

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                                  • Originally posted by Metpatpetet View Post

                                    Most probably the Essenes determined what books they would include. Among their scrolls are books that are otherwise unknown and appear to have been written to reinforce their own viewpoint, such as "The Wars of the Sons of Light and Darkness". As far as is known, since they kept many of their practices secret, they were, if not outright heretics, on the fringes.
                                    It seems plausible that the Essenes were on the fringes of Hebrew society.

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by Shoshana View Post

                                      And I say that the Essenes who set themselves apart from the mainstream out in the desert did not necessarily agree with normative Judaism, so what?

                                      You haven't answered my question though, what's any of it to you, how and why Jews accepted certain books into their canon and excluded others. Does it impact your faith or religion in any way? I can't see how.

                                      We have statements being made that the authors of the Gospels must not have been Jews because they had no knowledge of Judaism so I am just stating that the Jewish religious wasn't monolithic, there were fringe groups within the larger Jewish community that had divergent views on life after death and on other religious beliefs and practices.

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by Mark Kirkpatrick View Post

                                        And God creates Mankind knowing full well that the first two will almost immediately sin, ...

                                        The idea that a Supreme Being would behave in this fashion is ludicrous.



                                        I see. It's someone else's fault.

                                        MK
                                        No. God created man with free will and the ability to think rather than just act on instinct. Even now, imperfect humans can choose to do God's will, if they want. That many make the same choice as Adam and decide for themselves right and wrong, ... well, that does not negate the fact they can choose for themselves, and the way is still open to choose God as sovereign.
                                        Last edited by Johnny Bigodes; 01-13-2018, 09:43 AM.

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by Metpatpetet View Post

                                          Genesis 1: 31 only says that what God saw was "very good", not that His creation was perfect. And He saw that the entire creation was, in His opinion, very good -- which includes Adam, but isn't limited to him. Eve was "very good" too.
                                          They were very good. But then, "This alone I have found: The true God made mankind upright, but they have sought out many schemes." (Ec 7:29)

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