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  • Originally posted by mikeofallbirds View Post

    I was on CompuServe back sometime soon after '91, but I didn't come to the religion forum for quite a few years after that. Probably not until after 2000.
    I know I was here in '89, on this forum, because I remember seeing that date in an archived thread, but can't confirm anything earlier. I've been away for a year or so at a time, though.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Shoshana View Post

      One person's learned Jew is another person's ignorant, uneducated or mis-educated Jew. I have had years and years of Jewish education and it only scratches the surface.

      The only conversation along those lines that I remember was a discussion and disagreement I had with a woman who identified as a Reform Jew who claimed either that someone who converted out of Judaism was no longer Jewish - I disagreed per the Talmud class I had in High School; I held to the the opinion that someone's Jewishness should not be removed subject to another human's whim.
      Sadly, we do see that in the subjective, politicized hurdles put in the way of those who wish to convert into Judaism - especially where the rabbis have the power of the State behind them in Israel.
      It can be very confusing for the outsider [as well as for an Israeli, occasionally] to realize that there can be major differences between what the secular civil court system of Israel decrees, and what the rabbinate asserts, in accordance with halacha.

      Back in the 1950s, a Jewish convert to Catholicism who became a monk, named Brother Daniel, applied for immediate Israeli citizenship under the Law of Return, claiming that he fulfilled the necessary requirement of having at least one Jewish grandparent [he had 4] and being born Jewish. This would have saved him the 5 years it takes for non-Jews who want Israeli citizenship to obtain it via naturalization procedures. The court case became a cause celebre, and the Israeli government denied his application. According to Wikipedia, Rufeisen [Brother Daniel] appealed the case to the Supreme Court of Israel, and in 1962 the Court upheld the government's decision: any Jew converting to another religion would lose their preferential access to Israeli citizenship (Rufeisen v Minister of the Interior, (1962) 16 PD 2428).

      Nevertheless, Rufeisen was able to immigrate to Israel, acquired Israeli citizenship through naturalization, and lived the rest of his life at the Stella Maris Carmelite Monastery in Haifa.


      It has to be emphasized that this was a secular ruling, for citizenship purposes only. The rabbinical definition of Jewishness was that Brother Daniel remained a Jew, although he was an apostate, for religious purposes.
      Metpatpetet מתפתפתת
      אשרי אדם, מצא חכמה ואדם יפיק תבונה
      Proverbs 3:13

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Carver View Post

        Yes, the precursor forum to this one. And the people were learned, somewhat 'official' Jews. I'm not going to say more about it except that the conversation came about during a discussion of Messianic Jews, so the Jews seemed somewhat riled up to start with <g>.

        As for whether they were wrong, I just don't take sides in the Jewish identity wars.

        . . . It's easy to get stuff like this wrong. Sometimes contexts get cross-wired. I could have sworn that Jews in the Compuserve forum claimed that if a person converted to Christianity it was treated differently than converting to any other religion or atheism. But I have a pretty comprehensive archive of stuff said there and I couldn't find anyone claiming a Jew loses their Jewish identity by conversion to faith in Christ.

        They (those who convert to Christ) become apostate, min, sectarians. -----For instance, in the Talmud, Christianity, for a Jew, was considered a sect, or cult, but the person in it was still Jewish. Which implies that something about Jewish identity transcends religion. So if its not religion, and not ethnic, and not genetic, what is it? (And to beat Met to the punch, the sages are clear that it's not a combination of any of those things either. It has elements of all of them ----can be all of them---- but can also be none of them. No mixture or singularity of any of them defines the identity.)

        For the first time I think I have a logical, reasonable idea of what it is. Joseph helped with this by bringing up the concept of san sanguinis (right of blood), but I'm still gestating the ideas.



        John
        Last edited by John D. Brey; 02-14-2018, 10:58 AM.
        ד׳
        חכמה עצה דעת רוחויראתד׳וגבורהובינה
        רוח
        רוח
        רוח
        ח
        ו
        ט
        ר


        ג ז ע


        Hashem Saves!

        Comment


        • Originally posted by John D. Brey View Post
          . . . It's easy to get stuff like this wrong. Sometimes contexts get cross-wired. I could have sworn that Jews in the Compuserve forum claimed that if a person converted to Christianity it was treated differently than converting to any other religion or atheism. But I have a pretty comprehensive archive of stuff said there and I couldn't find anyone claiming a Jew loses their Jewish identity by conversion to faith in Christ.
          For what it's worth, I've asked several Jews about it since then and haven't had a single one agree that a Christian convert loses his Jewishness.

          >> They (those who convert to Christ) become apostate, min, sectarians. -----For instance, in the Talmud, Christianity, for a Jew, was considered a sect, or cult, but the person in it was still Jewish. Which implies that something about Jewish identity transcends religion. So if its not religion, and not ethnic, and not genetic, what is it? (And to beat Met to the punch, the sages are clear that it's not a combination of any of those things either.) <<

          My only real interest is certainty. Not tribal identity, but rather the absolute certainty about one's tribal identity (and about the other guy's non-membership).

          So I'm really not much interested in the question of who's a Jew.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Carver View Post


            So I'm really not much interested in the question of who's a Jew.


            . . . . I pity you. -----Every genuine theological concept in the universe is wrapped up in that question. . . The answer to that question will set you free. Everlasting life rests on the answer to that question.



            John
            Last edited by John D. Brey; 02-14-2018, 11:29 AM.
            ד׳
            חכמה עצה דעת רוחויראתד׳וגבורהובינה
            רוח
            רוח
            רוח
            ח
            ו
            ט
            ר


            ג ז ע


            Hashem Saves!

            Comment


            • Originally posted by John D. Brey View Post

              . . . . I pity you. -----Every genuine theological concept in the universe is wrapped up in that question. . . The answer to that question will set you free. Everlasting life rests on the answer to that question.
              Actually, God doesn't care a thing about Jews or Jewishness.

              I'm sorry. I don't pity you for thinking so, but I do kinda think you might be wasting some of your cogitation time.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by John D. Brey View Post

                . . . . I pity you. -----Every genuine theological concept in the universe is wrapped up in that question. . .
                The universe? Billions and billions of moons?

                MK

                Comment


                • Originally posted by John D. Brey View Post

                  I could have sworn that Jews in the Compuserve forum claimed that if a person converted to Christianity it was treated differently than converting to any other religion or atheism. But I have a pretty comprehensive archive of stuff said there and I couldn't find anyone claiming a Jew loses their Jewish identity by conversion to faith in Christ.
                  Proof positive that there is a strong chance you are misremembering the works of those you so often quote as proof that you have the truth.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Mel View Post

                    Proof positive that there is a strong chance you are misremembering the works of those you so often quote as proof that you have the truth.
                    Certainly the entire purpose of the Kol Nidre ["all vows"] prayer chanted on the Eve of Yom Kippur is to void [essentially] all forced conversion vows. It goes back to the period of the Reconquista in Spain, when all the Jews in Christian-dominated areas were given the choice of conversion or death in 1391. So Judaism recognizes a difference between voluntary and involuntary conversion. Until the rise of racial/eugenic theories in the 19th century, conversion "solved the problem" [although no Christian ever really forgot that the person was a convert; theoretically, a convert had been "saved"] and allowed Jews to avoid the restrictive legislation throughout Europe directed at observant Jews. Once Jews were officially a "race", no conversion helped remove the "taint".

                    As a result, the State of Israel, in the Law of Return, is far more liberal about who is a Jew than religious definitions. So [and it happens often] someone who's only got a single Jewish grandparent can be fast-tracked to Israeli citizenship, only to find that it is impossible to marry in the country [since it must be done under religious auspices]
                    Metpatpetet מתפתפתת
                    אשרי אדם, מצא חכמה ואדם יפיק תבונה
                    Proverbs 3:13

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Metpatpetet View Post

                      Certainly the entire purpose of the Kol Nidre ["all vows"] prayer chanted on the Eve of Yom Kippur is to void [essentially] all forced conversion vows. It goes back to the period of the Reconquista in Spain, when all the Jews in Christian-dominated areas were given the choice of conversion or death in 1391. So Judaism recognizes a difference between voluntary and involuntary conversion. Until the rise of racial/eugenic theories in the 19th century, conversion "solved the problem" [although no Christian ever really forgot that the person was a convert; theoretically, a convert had been "saved"] and allowed Jews to avoid the restrictive legislation throughout Europe directed at observant Jews. Once Jews were officially a "race", no conversion helped remove the "taint".
                      The Spanish Inquisition was quite tough against the Jews who became Christian conversos. The Church didn't forget who were the original Jews.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Mark Kirkpatrick View Post

                        The universe? Billions and billions of moons?


                        . . . I will stand by my statement that despite the billions of moons, they're nothing in comparison to the meaning of Jewish identity. And I'm not being facetious. . . I might be a moron whose been mooned too many times. But I genuinely believe what I said. . . I genuinely believe anyone who thinks otherwise will eat crow under a blood red moon very soon.




                        John
                        Last edited by John D. Brey; 02-14-2018, 07:47 PM.
                        ד׳
                        חכמה עצה דעת רוחויראתד׳וגבורהובינה
                        רוח
                        רוח
                        רוח
                        ח
                        ו
                        ט
                        ר


                        ג ז ע


                        Hashem Saves!

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Mel View Post

                          Proof positive that there is a strong chance you are misremembering the works of those you so often quote as proof that you have the truth.

                          . . . You have it perfectly backwards Mel. . . I can tell you almost everything anyone said about the subject in the old forum, since I archived it all. And I looked, carefully, trying to find someone saying that conversion to Christianity affects Jewish identity. But I couldn't. Which is to say, I don't go on memory. I go on being able to quote.

                          I suggest you read the last ten or twenty threads I've started and try to find some place where I misquote, or deny the legitimacy of the most general interpretation of what is implied in the quote.

                          Btw . . . I've thought about posting a mosaic of statement made by you (in the last forum) that would have changed Moses' mind about allowing God to annihilate the hoi polloi. Had you lived in the Exodus, and said what you've said in the last 15 years, today every person on the planet would trace their lineage back to Moses since God would have annihilated everyone and started fresh with Moses. . . You would have had that affect on Moses. Seriously. Single-handedly you'd have changed world history drastically. Your special in a particular way . . . like my teachers always told certain students of a certain nature that they were special.



                          John
                          Last edited by John D. Brey; 02-14-2018, 07:55 PM.
                          ד׳
                          חכמה עצה דעת רוחויראתד׳וגבורהובינה
                          רוח
                          רוח
                          רוח
                          ח
                          ו
                          ט
                          ר


                          ג ז ע


                          Hashem Saves!

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by John D. Brey View Post

                            . . . I will stand by my statement that despite the billions of moons, they're nothing in comparison to the meaning of Jewish identity. And I'm not being facetious.
                            It's apparent that you consider Jewish identity of the utmost importance, but the only thing God cares about is honesty. Nothing else matters to Him as much as that.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by John D. Brey View Post

                              I genuinely believe anyone who thinks otherwise will eat crow under a blood red moon very soon.
                              When Jesus returns, right?

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by John D. Brey View Post

                                .I can tell you almost everything anyone said about the subject in the old forum, since I archived it all. And I looked, carefully, trying to find someone saying that conversion to Christianity affects Jewish identity. But I couldn't. Which is to say, I don't go on memory.

                                You've provided proof that your memory is flawed and what you think you remember is a false memory. Thanks for that.

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by John D. Brey View Post
                                  I can tell you almost everything anyone said about the subject in the old forum, since I archived it all.
                                  Give me on quote on what Breedum Young wrote in the old forum about the subject at hand.

                                  If you can't then you're wrong.

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by John D. Brey View Post

                                    I suggest you read the last ten or twenty threads I've started and try to find some place where I misquote, or deny the legitimacy of the most general interpretation of what is implied in the quote.



                                    John
                                    I think most every message you post has at least one misrepresentation of Jewish thought.

                                    Have you read every seeder I've started in this new forum? If not then why should I treat you in kind?

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by John D. Brey View Post
                                      . . . You have it perfectly backwards Mel. . . I can tell you almost everything anyone said about the subject in the old forum, since I archived it all. And I looked, carefully, trying to find someone saying that conversion to Christianity affects Jewish identity. But I couldn't. Which is to say, I don't go on memory. I go on being able to quote.
                                      So far as I know, you have never had access to the Staff Section here. So don't be too quick to assume that you have every thread which ever happened.

                                      Not to mention the constant thread-splitting and moving from section to section. I've tried to archive, but it's almost impossible to get a clean thread when the staff members are actively doing their jobs, even when it's all left public.

                                      Also, can you say how long you've been here? Thirty years at least?

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by John D. Brey View Post
                                        What's "a mosaic of statement"?

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by John D. Brey View Post
                                          Had you lived in the Exodus, and said what you've said in the last 15 years, today every person on the planet would trace their lineage back to Moses since God would have annihilated everyone and started fresh with Moses. . . You would have had that affect on Moses. Seriously. Single-handedly you'd have changed world history drastically. Your special.

                                          You ascribe more power to me than I will ever hold. But we both know the Exodus was nothing more than a slave story that grew greater and more unbelievable with each telling.

                                          Comment

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